Automated Webinar Transcript

Hello and welcome to a special edition of the Highlight Reel, all about the power of packaging. I'm your host, Nate Rosen, and today with us we have two amazing guests, Tracy and Russell, talking about the power of packaging. Hi, I'm Tracy Luckow, I'm co founder and president of Whipnotic, the whipped cream company. 

I'm Russ Gong, co founder and president of Cabinet Health, we're a sustainable healthcare company. So, for both of you, we're gonna start with this question. What trends are happening in packaging and what brands do you think are doing it really well other than your own? Okay, let's do this Well, first off I'll start by saying it's awesome to be with the Highlight group, we've been a big fan since the beginning of the company and they have an epic team behind it. And so really they're the best to answer some of those broader trends I think from from my vantage point as a sustainable health care company the trends that we really see is number one a really a focus on substantive sustainability I think there's been some very clear trends on not just being able to provide it make a claim on it. But getting really deep and measuring the material whether that's the carbon footprint or the plastic footprint seeing some really cool things there at the product level the buyer level just more sophistication on what is sustainable?

What is not? So, that's awesome. We're big nerds about that and happy to see that. Um, I think another element that we're seeing when it comes to packaging, and this is not really in the cool areas that Trace is going to talk about, but I think we're seeing a lot of consolidation of packaging. We've seen sort of this proliferation of like, very fantastic designs, but as it starts to get in market, consumers start to feel all this variety.

Some desire to consolidate and finding like, what are the right, what are the right big levers that really make them, um, make the difference for the business, make the difference for impact. Um,  excited to talk more about that later when it comes to the healthcare space, but Tracy, what do you think? I'll go at it from a very different angle, so I'll talk more about like aesthetics, um, than on function.

Although I see a lot of the same functional things as you do. But, you know, when I was growing up in this industry, I was taught a number of principles about how a brand should look on shelf. And it seems like all of those conventions are being torn apart.  So, um, first of all, uh, you know, you need it to color block.

You needed to have one color that was ownable, that was your own, that when you got to shelf you recognized immediately it was the brand from the color. Now brands are just rainbows of colors on shelf, there is no ownable color necessarily anymore. But you have ownable kind of aesthetic, or like a look and feel, rather than a color.

I think that's really interesting. I think brand needed to be kind of front and center, but there was a hierarchy of information that came behind that. Now I see cans and bottles and boxes that are just like a brand name and no other information. And oftentimes it's written kind of vertical as opposed to, so you have to kind of squint while you're shopping.

So all of those conventions are, are kind of out the door. And then you had to show your product in some fashion. So either it was through drawing that was sort of realistic or whether it was a transparent kind of view into what the packaging was. Nobody is really doing that anymore. Who knows what's inside each product and, and bag and box and can.

Um, and I think that it's. It's kind of interesting as the trends, and we'll see if they hold up over time, but that's what I'm seeing. Yeah. I love a product image on the front of a pack. I want to know what I'm eating. It's crazy. Yeah, make it easy. So actually, now that you're providing that, I think another thing that we're seeing a lot is personalization.

Or at least that we are seeing from the cabinet perspective, is this, this ability to personalize your packaging. And I think what Tracy's sharing is, is exactly right. It's like whatever actually just inspires that customer, whether it's that color, I think that's part of the, I love the idea of like the rules are being broken because the consumer is so diverse.

Like, we have so many different ways to express ourselves now. And that's perfectly pushed out when it's ultimately, literally designed for you. And, um, I'll share some case studies of how we've seen that in the prescription space. Of using that as a way to bring people to getting into the product. 

Amazing. So, Tracy, back to you. Sort of following up on this  line of thinking here.  And this is a big question. Does packaging really move the needle? Obviously you have a food product, so,  it's a big question, right? So obviously it needs to taste great, that's like, a huge factor in CPG, but you know, to your point, things are changing, and does, does the packaging still sort of matter, or is there  all these other aspects that are also at play here? 

There's definitely a lot of aspects at play. Growing up kind of in the insights world for big CPG companies, the rule of thumb that I was always taught was that a really good packaging change will be neutral, meaning that, you know, you won't upset the apple card at all. You won't lose anyone, which you might do if you don't update and modernize, but you won't attract necessarily new people.

Throughout my career, though, I've seen both packaging drive incremental sales as well as completely destroy the trajectory of the brand. So I can give two examples. Um, so the first example I'll go with was the negative one. So if I like talk about the brand Tropicana, what are kind of the iconography?

Like, what are the things that come to your mind when you think about the brand Tropicana? Big orange.  Big orange. I think about my kids throwing their cup on the ground. Relatable. Relatable story. Relatable. Um, but yeah, so back in like the 2000s when I was at PepsiCo there was a desire to make enormous packaging changes that were aesthetic in nature and um, one of the designers kind of removed the orange with the straw.

from the Tropicana and the sales plummeted because Tropicana needs that cue. That is the cue that shows that it's the brand, that it's the quality, the premium nature, um, and straight from the source rather than, uh, the private label versions of it. And so that was an example where changing the packaging, nothing else changed.

The recipe was the same. Everything else was the same. But that had a really negative impact and immediately they had to revert back. Um, and then a positive example when I worked at the Sabra company, which makes hummus, we also had a guacamole and I was asked to oversee the guacamole part of the business and my only reservation was the packaging was hideous.

And so I said, I would do it as long as I had the ability to change the packaging on the brand. And we changed nothing else. Recipe stayed the same. But all of a sudden, the brand popped on shelf. People felt the freshness of the ingredients. The product we knew was really good. But nobody was giving it a shot because it was just Honestly very ugly 

And so by making the packaging match the inside, I think the product took off. And I think that's, back to your question, what matters? Everything has to match, right? Um, so yeah. That's so fascinating. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the Tropicana story. It, I think it's not like a marketing, big marketing case study. Um, and then the Gap one as well - less CPG. The only thing I would add is, like, I think when the questions like what, what moves the needle and obviously we're thinking sales. Um, but in innovation brands like Whipnotic and others, there's also other needles that packaging moves that I think is very productive for industry businesses, companies and the needle of changing the supply chain out, right?

Like, um, you know, for, for our case we created sustainable healthcare packaging and a lot of the manufacturing is so mass marketed that if you don't have, that is built for a very specific type of packaging. Packaging being able to inspire the way that they think about their own operations really changes the game.

We'll see a patented, um, nozzle soon, but it just changes the way that consumers are interacting with it. And so I think there's a lot of different needles in my mind outside of just the market that packaging starts to spark, um, that ultimately the consumer feels, right? Um, so.  Those examples are, I'm never going to look at a chocolate cannibal. 

I actually  didn't hear that case study. I was like, oh, that makes sense. I was there. That's crazy. That's crazy. That's CPG history. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so Russell, you know, talking about moving the needle, and you have very, I think, innovative packaging, and you're talking about personalization. So, what has inspired you in producing and creating Cabinet as it exists today and as it has existed in the past.

And what references did you look for? Obviously the, the pill case market is, there's pretty much one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. An orange one. And you know, famously Target or CVS tried to create a custom one and that got nixed. So.  How many iterations did you go through? What did all this look like? Yeah, uh, well, we won't have time to talk through all that, but, um, I guess start, uh, starting with, like, uh, why and what we do.

So, Cabinet is a sustainable healthcare company focused on eliminating plastic from the environment and also finding higher quality forms of healthcare.  Um, the problem to the question of what inspired us is really more of a social impact issue. Uh, we saw that there was these vast amounts of single use plastic medicine, roughly 190 billion single use plastic medicine bottles every year.

If you think about your medicine cabinet, the pharmacy aisles, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Um, start imagining the back of pharmacy, the back of hospital systems, um, all the other types of healthcare products we use. Um, that was really more of the call to action versus inspiration. Um, and so what we, what we recognized in that material problem was also effectively a sad irony that it was a healthcare problem.

That of that vast amount of plastic,  Only  maybe say three, two, depending on the season, is actually recycled. The vast majority of it goes into oceans, landfills, into our bodies, etc.  And so fundamentally what inspired us to form Cabinet was this recognition that plastic waste is an issue. Uh, and it's a health care issue with microplastics in our bodies.

And they're in the health care industry needs to be a part of the solution to solve that.  And so the way that we solved that was really starting with packaging. Starting with a brand that brought sort of, as opposed to this larger, esoteric, systematic challenge, just said, here's something that could be exciting, interesting, different.

Get you to talk about medicine and your health care. ever, right, or for the first time, um, find it at Target, find it on shelf and get excited about it. Um, and we always had this view that the bottle is the first connection to then ultimately how do you get into the broader consumer way of helping them or patient helping them.

Um, so, uh, that's why we started it and, and what we do is we have a brand, which is a refillable, compostable medicine system, um, in Target and CVS and different groups. And it reduces more than a pound of plastic every single year if you stick to the system. And we've created that packaging from scratch.

That's our brand. But behind the scenes, we have created a an arsenal of different packaging where the real impact is not just our brand, but it's how we partner with bigger players. So can we partner with the big retailers, the big health care systems to then use alternative packaging to really move the material needle, move the impact forward.

Um, and so, uh, in terms of like versions, we had So many different versions, and we took it more from a material science problem and then a quality problem, but ultimately a How do you get patients and consumers and everyone who touches that a design problem? Uh, and so, inspiration that we took was anything.

Anything from not just the typical amber bottles, but  what is the broader world of packaging? We looked a lot at sustainable refill models from, we call them sustainable switch models, whether it's like plastic to aluminum.  And the list goes on and on. We've had some great partnerships with Highlight as thinking through, like, what is that to the consumer?

Um, but, you know, in the end of the day, it's been, uh, our, our end result is packaging does move the needle. We've seen it from true patient life perspectives, um, and happy to share more from there.  Amazing.  Um, I'm sure you have a lot of  failures to, uh, Tracy, I'm sure you have as well. I can't imagine that nozzle was not complex to, to work with.

Do you have any fun horror stories from that? Oh my God. Um, definitely a horror stories. I don't know about fun cause they still keep me up at night, but, um, yeah, when we were inventing our technology, um, our first, uh, you know, few months. I would literally drive to every store I possibly could to look at the shelf set constantly because our, our first iteration of our nozzle, the caps were popping off.

And so I would see like, you know, things that, you know, were not safety protected on shelf and I'd have to buy them all. Um, I saw, like, our straw, we launched first with vanilla salted caramel and strawberry swirl. And this, the strawberry was leaking. And so it looked like murder had occurred on the dairy aisle.

Halloween, Halloween campaign. Halloween 365. Um, and I would have to buy the product and remove it before anybody else saw. Um, so yeah, I mean, we really saw a lot of failures and we used consumer feedback, um, insights that we were procuring from a variety of different ways, both traditional and very non traditional, um, in order to make quick changes to our technology and improve it.

But I think this happens all the time whenever a packaging form. Um, no matter how simple it seems, there's just in the shipping, in the handling, in the supply chain so much that can go wrong that traditional testing doesn't often catch, um, when it comes to, um, plastic and metal and, you know, how they interact going through mountains and, and things like that. 

Yeah, or swamps or whatever it is. It's like, uh, yeah. I mean, I think, um, we have a really, really high bar for what is a success or failure by nature of what we do. And it's like mandated, and we need to even go a higher level than that. Whether that's quality standards, FDA standards, and for food, it's just the same. 

With pharmaceutical products, or over the counter products, like There is no failure opportunity,  um, so, uh, what that means is a lot of time in the proverbial oven of packaging testing. So we do, um, when we first got started, uh, before we were even called Cabinet, uh, when actually our, our moments was like, maybe we'll do plastic.

And we were like trying to do different versions of plastic. And I remember getting a call from my co founder, um, like we were trying this alternative plastic and, and he's like, bro, it's like, it's melting. It's all melting. It's like, it's horrible. And we're like, alright, we're not doing plastic because like that doesn't make sense anyways because we're against plastic.

So, um, what we ended up doing was like a variety of different packaging tests.  Um, and so that was Compostable Flexible Films We have probably a hundred different iterations That we've created, manifested ourselves We have glass, etc. And so, a lot of that is just Making sure you're really aiming right Not just from the consumer standpoint, from the quality Starting off Putting in the oven, doing all the required testing, and then For all those packaging engineers, like sustainability is absolutely possible.

It just takes time and iteration, right?  so obviously Packaging failures. How do you make sure that? The packaging feels and looks right when it goes online to social media it gets into consumers hands  What are some of the I guess?  unanticipated ways that packaging can backfire. 

I think there's a lot. I mean, I think using, um, I think Tracy's example is a perfect example of  how, uh, her example of Tropicana  is a perfect example of how,  uh, that sort of, you make big bets, you know? You make big bets, you gotta iterate, and then, in the end of the day, it's like, Consumer, yeah, but then it can affect it.

Her current product is the example of success.  Uh, I would, I would say like,  I think that we as founders and builders are very obsessed with product market fit. And  what really is challenging with packaging is it's product market channel fit. And that's a very big difference. And when you have a business that we all, in a business that we all kind of need to run in this world being,  Omni channel focus, right?

There is no, or the,  it, it, for, for us as founders, like, omni channels ultimately, like, as you're figuring out product market fit, we take whatever channels really start to drive excitement and demand. And so,  Multiple channels means multiple product market channel fit. Multiple product market channel fit might mean different packaging.

Different packaging is hard to do because it takes time, money, and insight. Um, so I think some of the biggest challenges of packaging is  you really just got to make sure that the, you work backwards, actually, in my opinion, from a channel, whether that's the consumer first to then the market, to then the product, which allows us to make bigger bets on product. And we, um, just to close on my side,  ways that we've identified that in Cabinet is we have found, for example, our glass and compostable refillable system is really, really great for our online pharmacy, but not perfect for hospital systems. Okay, we're mission focused, so we'll go with hospital systems, a very separate sustainable packaging that doesn't require all that, um, and isn't able to scale.

So, uh, that would be my sort of initial view. Yeah. I would say, like, I would summarize failure in one pithy sentence and then I'll expand on it. But I think that packaging fails when the expectation is not met. That is set from the packaging and that can come in a variety of different ways. So I think that if you are a refillable product, you better be easy to refill.

And there are a lot of products that I've purchased through the years that are refillable liquids that I'm pouring and it's splattering all over the place. Or, um, just, you know, the, the texture of what's inside is very hard to refill. Um, it can be very, or if it's a, if it's a, like some sort of a twist where the twisting action doesn't work well, I've had all of those experiences.

If you are, um, a product that looks stunning and the actual, um, product inside doesn't match that expectation, that can be a huge letdown. If you look, you know, um,  uh, beautiful and premium in glass, for example, I've had this happen to me. But you require a lot of action in order to get the product out. Um, glass can easily fall, break, hurt you.

I have battle scars from that. So I think it's all about making sure that you're thinking about how the consumer is using the product, what they will think when they see your product and are they able to meet that expectation at the end of the day.  It's really well said.  All right, Tracy. Continuing with you. 

Obviously, whipped cream is such a fun product. It's a dessert. It's, it's for birthdays. It's a treat. You put it on. Pumpkin spice lattes now that we're in fall. It's a breakfast food. It's a breakfast food. It's great breakfast food. Um, but of course for Whipnotic you have a patented nozzle, and  I think that's key to making a great product.

Can you tell us a little bit more about the nozzle itself? Yeah. How you got to this point. Why you wanted to make a patented nozzle? Why that's better? I never in my life thought I would ever make a patented nozzle. But yeah, do you want to come and share? It's easier to do show and tell with physical product.

Did somebody say patent? Did someone say patent? Thank you. Um, yeah, so we set out to, um, take a category that no one was really talking that much about and really reinvent it. And whipped cream is one of those categories that 75 plus years old hasn't seen much innovation. And in fact, aerosol cans haven't seen much innovation.

And we decided we wanted to do something a little bit different. So we were very inspired by baristas and coffee shops and milkshake parlors and, you know, lots of places where they were swirling sauces and flavors into whipped cream. And we wanted to bring that to grocery. So we had to patent a nozzle in order to make that happen.

And it started by looking at the frozen yogurt machines that swirl flavors together and then thought about how we can adapt that to aerosol. So, uh, the first thing I will say is that, like, our whipped cream is all in the can itself. So that's filled with whipped cream. That's kind of more like homemade whipped cream than the traditional.

But then all of the flavoring actually is in this colorful button. And so, yeah, when you press the button, you can actually see, um, just the flavor itself coming through.  So, um, here I'll show a demo.  I thought it was going to get me. No, no, no. I'm experienced. I have a lot of experience.  So when you push the button and you spray at the same time,  you can see that the flavor swirls right in.

That's awesome. It's kind of like the barista lives right inside the can.  That's a good tagline. Nailed it. Yeah. And this is definitely going to be a good product. This is our brownie batter. Oh wow, look at that. Thanks Tracy. Of course. Yeah, we will not be doing medicine sampling. So this is it. Cheers. 

Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. So all of that is under  15 calories, um, less than a gram of sugar. So we have different flavors, but essentially, yeah, a patented nozzle was required. This is great for breakfast. Super soft. This is the first thing I've had today. Yeah. My boys are going to be listening. This is so good.

Can we try that one? Yeah. Oh wow, that's good. How about after? We'll, you know. Just wait for a great pub cup. Yeah, I hear that a lot.  Um, are you going to make custom shot glass made me think, are you guys going to make, there's got to be like custom shots with it or not. We can do anything. That's amazing.

But you can put to your idea of like, you know, consolidation, right? Rather than having multiple bottles in a coffee shop, um, and all of that. Like, this basically allows for two substances to come together. I can't wait for a pumpkin spice one. Well, we're actually launching two holiday ones. We have, um, Apple Crisp. And we have Peppermint Mocha launching in October. Oh my god. Yeah. Let's go. That's awesome. Yeah. Great on hot chocolate.  Probably the peppermint one, not the apple one. Apple's great on cider.  I like that. That's amazing.  Uh, so it does move the needle. 

Well, that was my goal was to make people of all ages happy.  It's fun to see people happy. I think it's also great that it's just a fun product. Yeah, like we have, there's so many very serious. It's important to change the world and be very serious. And you know, for us, we just want to bring a little happiness. 

We're talking about being serious. Russell, I have a question for you. Oh, I'm the serious guy? You are. You're solving the world's problems. You are? Yeah. Thanks, guys. Thank you. What has been the most challenging part about building what is a very disruptive brand? Um, I mean, you're looking at a very challenging category with a lot of really big multinational players  that control a significant portion of the market. 

How'd you make that happen? Yeah. I mean, we have a lot of work to do. I think that we, we look at our call to action truly from a,  is the sustainable healthcare problem existing still? Are people aware of it? And that's really the work to be done. So I think to your question on what are the biggest challenges for me, it's, it's speed of impact the market and the impact opportunity is all there.

It's just what is going to be the fastest way to reduce the most amount of single use plastic and health care and more sustainable health care solutions. So, um, you know, I think there's a lot of different challenges to bring it to life, right? But ultimately those are very solvable. We have a wonderful team that is like from industry experts that are passionate about this. 

That's one thing. But really, for me, it's speed and how do we do it all at once. So, um, more so saying, you know, one is a brand. We thought, think about,  if Cabinet is the biggest healthcare brand on the planet, even as one single healthcare brand, we're not going to be making the biggest dent that we can in actually changing the way that the healthcare industry works with materials and works with sustainability.

So, that's an example of, like, The challenge that I face is, you know, I've got two kids at home, I know what plastics do in our communities, and ultimately I want to move faster.  And so, um, one way that we've responded to that challenge is also thinking, uh, less selfishly of just our brand, but thinking through, how do we give our secrets to the bigger players?

Truly, just say, we've done it for our brand, let's help you with others. So we have some phenomenal partners with with McKesson, which is a large healthcare distributor, one of the biggest on the planet, thinking through innovation and sustainability. We've launched, um, with, in partnership with their leadership, a plastic, a plastic reduced, 70 percent less plastic, aluminum over the counter line with, um, with a massive company.

We work with CVS and others just that same way. And so, um, that's sort of the big area I think about is just speed of action, but what I'm encouraged by. is that we can all agree that packaging in healthcare is a healthcare responsibility. And there's opportunity not just from doing the right thing, but being better for the patient, being better for the market, giving more joy to people in the, in the moment, in the most dire moments of their life.

Um, and so that, that's where like I look at that challenge and I'm extremely encouraged by the reception from it. And so we look at that. Um, And then the last question for you is like, How do we think about that from a brand standpoint? And, you know, the end of the day is, we exist to solve the mission. We exist to say, hey, we've done it before.

It helps the patient, helps the consumer.  Let's look, let's open up our library of packaging and how, how do we bring this together? Have you found the big guys Are getting scared? Like, have they changed any of their behaviors? I think, um,  I think that scared is not the, I think that focused and finding the intention of doing something is ultimately the reaction that we want to get.

I mean, I'm certain that, you know, we as a company, we don't look at ourselves as a challenger brand of like, look at the, look at the big incumbents and they're the problem. I think it's more of, we recognize that Um, doing sustainability in health care is challenging, right? It's, if we think about COVID, today there's more masks in the oceans than jellyfish.

But can anyone be faulted for the fact of trying to save their family or their loved ones? And so  our industry perspective is that we just recognize that  it's a false decision. It's a false decision that the industry has to choose between. The quality of their care and the quality of their planet and what's missing is effectively an innovator and a collaborative innovator that says Look, this isn't about taking anybody's lunch.

In fact, this is about actually servicing our patients, which we all have a mission for  what we just need is a challenger brand challenger company that does some of those harder things that  That gets those patents in motion Gets those supply chains in motion, which is like, I really see in here as well.

Um, and then we look at, uh, big players, not as competitors, but mission aligned partners that are actually going to help us solve it.  It's beautiful.  You feel the same way about it? No, we want to, we're a challenger. We're taking down our competition. Get it, girl. Get it, yeah. Let's talk about this challenger brand.

It's a very sensory experience. The users participating in creating the product, was that something you set out to do, or was that just sort of a forcing function of how to put everything together in this current supply chain, uh, environment and just how the product came together? No, it was very intentional.

We wanted to encourage play, um, from the very beginning. We wanted, um, The consumer to be in charge and to be kind of the the orchestrator of the the action But we also have so many other parts that are like I would consider high sensory in our product So first of all, I mean, I think in a category like dairy where there's a lot of beige.

There's a lot of white. We were kind of interested in not being beige or white. Um, and so in some of the conventions that we talked about of having one color that blocks the shelf, we just wanted to be enormous, um, you know, bolts of color, um, and bright colors and fun. Um, the other thing too is that again, the, the button that shows our point of difference is a very bright color.

I call it like the traffic light. Um, it stops you, it lets you know there is something that's a little bit unique about our can. Um, because the flavor is at the top, when you spray, you actually can smell, um, the fresh juices and the, the caramel that's in the top. So you get the sensory hit right away that shows this is a fresh product.

Um, and then the other thing is we took a lot of care as to what the material was that was in the button because we wanted it to be fun to press so it feels nice and it reforms kind of. the opposite of like that juice box experience where you crush it and then it's gone. Like, we didn't want anyone worried, would there be enough flavor?

Um, would, you know, if they wanted to try it again, we wanted the button to come right back into shape. So there were a lot of attention to detail on the sensory aspect itself. Plus then the swirl is sort of at the center of it all. And I remember when we first created our product. We showed early packaging to one of my mentors, um, and she was like, I love your packaging, but that's not going to be your package in the end.

And I was like, what do you, what do you mean? How come? She's like, cause you're a brand that's all about a swirl. Put more swirl on your packaging. And that really stuck with me. Um, and so yeah, keeping that swirl as the forefront of everything that we do, that we, that we show, um, that we talk about, um, and really creating an icon around it. 

Have you found, have you found incumbents getting nervous? Yes. That's awesome. That's great.  Let's go. Yes. Oh, that's really good. Yeah. Love it. Russell, obviously while Cabinet might not be a treat for the senses all the time, um, you know, there's definitely like an aesthetic consideration. Cabinet's a very beautiful brand.

The, the actual like containers are lovely. It's like a really lovely thing to look at, which I think is great. And people want that in their home. Has it been challenging to create a product that, you know, both protects the planet, but also appeals to consumer preferences of aesthetics? Yeah, I mean, um, you know, we we actually, you know, putting mission aside, we have a lot of fun with our brand too.

Yeah. And I think when we look at the consumer's home sort of every other part of their home has been sort of designed intentionally, whether it's the kitchen or the bedroom or the wardrobe, but really the cabinet is like sort of that last bastion of like, just please don't open that, right? Like don't open the cabinet because that's where all of our old gross medicine bottles and whatever it is, uh, discarded toothpaste things are there. 

And so it's by no, uh, accident we wanted to be called Cabinet. Um, and so we love the idea of like, you know, our packaging, we have like a premium glass vessel. It's all stackable. It's specifically a squircle enabling for like the typical space savings, like "eat your heart out Marie Kondo" sort of world, and then as part of our refillable behavior, we have a recyclable snaplet or token that allows for not just productive information of the products to customers. But also ways that they can engage and for Rx ways they can talk to our care team and other things like that  And then our pouch is made out of compostable materials, which we take back and use in our own little farm, pH farm, where we move the compost and turn them into like different flowers and things like that.

So from a, uh, save the planet and get consumers excited, we're massive nerds, to be clear. Uh, but I think that we all are a little bit of massive nerds on different parts of that, whether it's nerds about, like, making our home really beautiful and, like, kind of be like, hey, my name's on this bottle, like, check it out.

Um, a lot of celebrities dig that. Uh, or whether it's, like, really wanting to have the decisions of our cabinet make better decisions as a smart consumer. So, you know, putting mission aside, I just want to, I want my things to be smarter for me. If I'm spending my money, so having a pouch that can actually be used into the ocean is, is always very fun to talk about. We'll go into investor meetings and show them the plants that their pharmaceutical packaging has made as opposed to the healthcare issues that it's made. Um, and so, uh, you know, for us, that's, that's the fun balance that like, yes, we're very serious as a healthcare brand and mission brand.

But at the end of the day, the alternative is so much more optimistic. It's not a reduction, eat your vegetables only thing. Actually, it's a very cool space of regenerative materials and higher quality care. Yeah, I think it's really important to not also be like, so negative towards the consumer and be like, no, this is beautiful and meet them where they're at, right? It's like, it's like, it doesn't have to be the full area. It's just like, if you like glass and, or if you like aluminum, that's where we're at. And, and that's where I think it's the industry's responsibility to be able to present something that is, um, both better for the patient planet.

Beautiful. Um, so a lot of product innovators say they want to be genuinely disruptive. Obviously not without a lot of risk. How do you push a category forward in such a significant way as both your products do while mitigating any of the risk that inherently comes with building something new, especially when it's a new format or, you know, taking on, uh, an antiquated category. 

Let's do this. Well, I think it goes without saying that data is critical. Um, I mean, we, yeah, this is a Highlight event. And I think, you know, we're both excited to be able to just promote the hard work that the Highlight team's doing. Um, they are thinking through this question of making better choices with better data and better tools.

Um, they've got a rock star team with, with Dana and the crew. And so I think, you know, number one, there's like tools available to understand that impact and measure that and try your best to aim.  Um, my view on the question though is like as, as founders, innovators or just people with conviction, like Tracy and I didn't start our businesses.

Because we are concerned about what's going to be happening in version two, three or four. And so I think that  the first thing I would say is like is the mindset of like risk mitigation is more so it's just like what  You know, I think when we build, it's conviction, right? And, and sometimes that conviction is not as strong because we don't know, right?

But, um, ultimately you do your best in getting the tools, you get the, the, the team, but at the end of the day you gotta put it out in the world. Um, and, and that ultimately just has to be iterative. So I think what we do to mitigate risk is ultimately just how much does it affect our conviction, and then we bring this in Cabinet.

We, we bring our team just saying, Hey, get ready for the results and after the results deal with them. So our job as leaders is how do we make sure we present for the long run?  What Russ said.  For real, I think, you know, there is in a way like the biggest risk is not taking the risk. And so I think, you know, sitting on something, waiting for perfection, you know, taking time to think through every possible scenario, all those things are very important, but they're never going to translate from what you thought of in the room, on your computer, on paper, to what happens in real life, which is why mistakes happen all the time.

So I think the best thing to do is listen as much as possible, share the idea with as many people as possible, get as many, um, voices into your head that you can consider, both people you know, but also people you don't know, because they'll be very honest, um, and then go for it. Um, and don't handcuff yourself, go for it, and then continue, continue to listen.

And truly, the 1 800 number on every can goes to my sister and my cell phone. We read every email. We read every post online. We watch every YouTube video. We are interacting daily on TikTok. Um, in fact, that's how we met, was on Twitter. You sent a message to our company before we even launched, and I responded.

So we are in touch in the traditional sense with research and with companies like Highlight and also in the non traditional sense with the amazing platforms that make it available for you to talk to people. And we go to store and we watch what's happening religiously and to me that is the only way.

And then what Russ said, act. Don't sit on the information, make the change that you heard. That makes a lot of sense. So kind of. Just answer this question, but I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you again because I think Tracy you might have some insight as well But you know, I think it's hard probably hard for both of you to imagine your brand is anything different Obviously, there was a lot of iterations before but you don't know what's gonna look like next year or the year after in the future  What advice would you give to other founders who might have a great idea for a CPG or consumer brand product  But might be struggling to sort of imagine how it looks  I think you just have to start.

Um, and I think that, you know, the thing that I, I don't know, that drives me every single day is that there are,  you know, millions of people with great ideas. And I think that's so exciting. Like, I just picture myself walking down the street and like all of the, like, especially in we're in Manhattan, you know, all of the, brilliant people who walked the same street before me for decades and, you know, centuries, I guess, um, who came up with ideas, probably like walking down the sidewalk and the number of people who are going to do it in the future.

And I think if you don't act, somebody else on the sidewalk will. Um, and so I remember, you know, being part of large CPG and being the market share leader many times. And the conversation coming up, like, should we innovate? Should we launch something? Is there too much risk to take the action? And when I look in the store now, there are so many brands and there are so many ideas on the shelf.

And I think, you know, the risk to not acting is that somebody else will. So that's, you know, that's my advice is just get started. Don't be afraid of it. Just get started or somebody else will. Well, thank you, Tracy and Russ for coming on, speaking with me and answering all of my questions. And thank you everybody for listening and stay tuned for the next session.